Turbo Compressor Mapping Information

GT4LIFE

Active member
There are a few easy to use calculators out there that calculate the information for matching engine air flow with turbo compressor map. However, I wanted to create one that housed the specific information for the g10 and g13B engines. I also want to post up the various different compressor maps for quick reference. I will edit as I go.

Airflow rate = cid(cubic inch displacement) x rpm x 0.5(four stroke cycle engine fill its cylinders only on one-half the revolutions) x Ev(volumetric efficiency) divided by 1728 (12x12x12x12, converts cubic inches to cubic feet).

Then multiple this by your pressure ratio. You can adjust these numbers using the above formula for your desired pressure ratio.

For turbo compressor match up you want to look through the entire rpm range to see where the efficiency lies at your desired pressure ratio. You don't need more than five data points to get a reasonable approximation where your compressor lies.

Volumetric Efficiency
The volumetric efficiency is only a guess, it could be as low as 0.65 or even as high as 0.95. It is difficult to calculate volumetric effieciency of a car without the right equipment, but from what I have read the literature suggest that you take a modern production car's volumetric effieciency somewhere between 75% and 85%. 95% would be excellent. Although in some applications 100% can be exceeded; turbo charging and other ways including designs on naturally aspirated engines. The literature out there also suggest that the DOHC engines have a higher volumetric efficiency than SOHC. This means that the G13B could be considerably higher in VE; as high as 110% to start with.

For the G10 .993 liter compressor mapping
993 cc to cid = 60.6 cubic inches
airflow rate= (cid x rpm x 0.5 x VE)/1728
1728 converts cbic inches to cubic feet

1. First example taking an educated guess for VE:(60.6 x 5700 rpm x 0.5 x .80 VE)/1728 = 79.96 cfm. (most of us don't rev a g10 above 5000).
2. Another example where I was comparing the G10 and G13B with known HP for VE: (60.6 x 5700 rpm x 0.5 x .75 VE)/1728 = 74.96 cfm.
3. Another example where I compared the G10 and G13B with known HP at given rpm and using cfm calculator for given HP: (60.6 x 5700 rpm x 0.5 x .825 VE) / 1728 =82.5 cfm

For G13B DOHC 1.3 liter Compressor mapping
1.3 liters = 1298 cc = 79.33 cid

1. First example taking an educated guess for VE :(79.33 x 6500rpm x 0.5 x 0.90 VE)/ 1728 =134.28 cfm
2. Another example where I was comparing the G10 and G13B known HP for VE: (79.33 x 6500 rpm x 0.5 x 0.91 VE)/ 1728 = 135.77
3. Another example where I was comparing the G10 and G13B known HP, and rpm, and using cfm calculator for given HP: (79.33 x 6500 rpm x 0.5 x 1.005 VE)/ 1728 = 150 cfm
(6500 is close enough to redline, and is where HP is maxed out stock)

If you compare the known horsepower output of a 1 liter Geo Metro 55 Horsepower @5700 rpm to the 1.3 DOHC Suzuki swift GT(i) 100 Horsepower @6500 rpm you see that these numbers are reasonable. Horsepower and airflow calculator will put cfm at 150 to get 100 horsepower, and 82.5 cfm to get 55 horsepower. The VE numbers that I came up with using the equation that included HP, and CFM at a given rpm are the best numbers that I can use for the compressor mapping. They have the most statistical input; they can certainly be off, but they are good numbers. I am actually blown away with where they are at. For simplification I am going to round to 82% for the g10 and 100% for the g13b.

Pressure ratio = 14.7 + boost/14.7

5psi = 1.34
6psi= 1.41
7psi = 1.48
8psi = 1.54
9psi = 1.61
10psi = 1.68
11psi = 1.75
12psi = 1.82
13psi = 1.88
14psi = 1.95
14.7psi = 2

Example:
G13B: 150 x 1.68 = 252 cfm at 10 psi or roughly 7.134 cubic meters/min.
G10: 82.5 x 1.68 = 138.6 cfm at 10 psi.
Side note on turbo cold side pipe size selection:
For turbo pipe sizing you want to take our highest rpm or highest number of cfm's than use a turbulence formula based on pressure resistance inside a tube. I have calculated cfm's up to 400 and never saw a reason to go above 2" piping unless you can't find a way to put the pipping in without using a lot of 90 degree bends. The larger pipping will reduce the pressure resistance across these bends. Anything using smaller than a 2" piping the turbo lag created by the additional volume of piping is something less than 1/10 of a second. I would recommend 2" to make pipe purchasing with fitting and bypass or blow off valves a lot easier.

Remember these are approximations that are used to match up a turbo to your engine's cfm. Your final cfm output is ultimately also determined by a lot of other variables not to say the least the turbocharger you select and the air cooling system you have or don't have.
 
How to calculate Trim:
trim = inducer²/exducer² * 100
ex. take a TD05H-20g compressor wheel:
inducer diameter: 52.56mm
exducer diameter: 68.01mm
trim: ?
trim = (52.56mm)² / (68.01mm)² * 100
= 2762.5536 / 4625.3601 * 100
= 59.7…
~= 60

Conversion Chart
qVvmDMa.png


Turbo Compressor Mapping (From smallest to largest) with pertinent hot and cold side dimensions when available.

TD03
fS2k1ic.jpg

Turbine size: 37 mm inducer and a 33 mm exducer (seems to be different sizes)

Garrett GT15 (there are three different versions) GT1548 is the largest watercooled
xpwXYmj.jpg

Turbine: Inducer: 42.2 mm Trim: 58 A/R: 0.34, 0.35, ?
Compressor: Inducer: 32.9 mm/ Exducer: 43.9 mm/ Trim: 56

(The G13B flows about 12lbs/min at 6500rpms)
(The G13B could flow as high as 16 lbs/ min at 8500rpms) I'm going to use this flow rate to look at compare the different turbos. The GT15 will not be good over 2 pressure ratio and would run good at 1.75, but really not making any gains above 7500 rpms or around 15 lbs/min.

GT2052

63A3OwT.jpg



Compressor: Inducer: 38mm Exducer:52 mm Trim: 52 A/R: 0.51 Turbine: Inducer: 47 mm Exducer: 40 mm Trim: 72 A/R: 0.50
(The G13B flows about 12 lbs/min at 6500 rpms) & (The G13B flows about 16 lbs/min at 8500 rpms). The GT2052 is not water cooled and runs on journal bearings but will run good at about 2.0 pressure ratio and spool relatively early and still hit hard through 8500 rpms.

TDO4 13G
1OCJyvD.gif


Compressor Inducer 40.56mm Exducer 55.98mm
Turbine Inducer 46.88mm Exducer 41.18mm

(The G13B will flow at 0.094 m3/S at 8500 rpms). It would have similar later spool to the T3 60 and run strong to max rpms but run best at a 1.6 pressure ratio.

IHI RBH5 VJ11

crz1FIp.jpg


(The G13B can run as high as 6 m3/min at 8500 rpms). I would run this at 1.8 pressure ratio and it would spool fully by 4000 rpm and run strong through to 8500 rpms. This is oil and water cooled with standard journal bearings and small turbine shaft. The exhaust inlet flange is a small square 2 3/16" bolt to bolt flange. The compressor inlet is only 1 7/8" and the outlet is only 1 3/4". Additionally, these are easy and cheap to rebuild.
Compressor: 39mm inducer and a 52.5 mm exducer 55 trim Turbine: inducer: 51.8mm, exducer: 42.4 mm and a trim of 67

IHI RBH5's VJ17
NnCKIBU.jpg

Same as one above with 88 to 89 t-bird wheel (3 mm larger inducer on compressor side and larger compressor/ A/R) 42mm inducer and a 52.5 mm exducer Turbine: inducer: 51.8mm, exducer: 42.4 mm and a trim of 67 (inducer and exducer terms are flipped when talking about compressor vs. turbine sides).




Last edited by solerpower on 5:59 PM - Nov 10, 2018, edited 9 times in total.
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solerpower
Posts 1,231
Location Washington
Year/Make/Model 92 Suzuki Swift GT, 90 Suzuki Swift GT, 90 4 Door Metro, 92 2 Door Purple Devil
Elite Member
1:49 PM - Aug 07, 2015 #3

Garrett T3 50, 55,& 60
Compressor: Trim: 60 1.830" (46.5 mm) inducer and 2.367" (60mm) exducer
Different Turbines used:
STANDARD 1.898" (48mm) 2.319" (59mm)
STAGE II 2.122" (54mm) 2.559" (66mm)
STAGE III 2.229" 2.559"
Since this is the exhaust side we're talking about - the larger number is for the inducer - the smaller is exducer.
Garrett T3 "60 trim" 60 1.830" exducer, 2.367" inducer
(46.5mm/ 60mm)
Garrett T3 "55 trim" 55 1.760", 2.367"
(45mm/ 60mm)
Garrett T3 "50 trim" 50 1.674", 2.367"
(42.5mm/ 60mm)
Garrett T3 50
ihs1fuw.gif


I have not seen a map for a 55.

Garrett T3 60
Rp9zEEr.gif



(The G13B could flow as high as 16 lbs/ min at 8500 rpms). The T3 60 (I think stage I) probably won't spool until 5,000 rpms, but would pull super hard from there to max rpms and probably get the most out of it at 1.8 pressure ratio. The T3 50 (I think stage I) will spool much earlier than the 60 probably around 3500 to 4000 rpms and should stay strong through 8500 rpms at a 2.10 pressure ratio. Both T3 50 and 60 Turbonetics have an inlet size of 3" and an outlet of 2". All T3 Turbonetics come with a 5/16" shaft and either journal or ceramic ball bearings.
Turbonetics:
T3-50 CAST part # 20268T compressor: inducer: 1.674" (42.5mm) exducer: 2.367" (60mm) 3" 2.00" 20374-3 T3
It uses an F1-49 turbine which has an exducer of 1.929" (49 mm). The inducer is 2.320" (58.9mm) 69 Trim
There are multiple A/R for the turbine .48, .63, .65, and .85

Turbonetics: F1-54 turbine. The compressor exducer is 48 mm.
C15 TNX 48/54
C15-48
3.0"/2.0"
F1-54
T3 0.48 A/R
4-bolt / 5-Bolt
There are multiple A/R for the turbine .48, .63, .65, and .85. As far as I can see Turbonetics is not really support the F1-49 line up anymore.

TNX-20/44 300 T3 57/44mm 54/43mm 11814 11815-BB



I will keep adding compressor maps, and I will also go back in an add turbine inducer and exducer diameters and hopefully variations of A/R ratios. Cold side inducer and exducer diameters of course effect flow characteristics, but I think it is easier to describe the engine match making without them. However, the RBH5 set above demonstrates how different the compressor maps can get with just a different cold side wheel. With the RBH5 set above the only differences are that wheel (cold side) inducer is 3 mm larger and the compressor housing is larger which should change the compressor A/R on the vj17 (87-89 Ford Thunderbird).

I will update photos in a short while
 
I went in and added the G10 output in cfm. I also used a comparison between the G10 and G13B with known horsepower at a given rpm, with the use of a horsepower to cfm calculator to get a much better estimate of the volumetric efficiency for both the G10 and G13B. I estimated that the G10 has a volumetric efficiency of 82.5% and the G13B has a volumetric efficiency of 100.05%.

I am going to add the information about aftermarket cams and volumetric efficiency right here so it is one place.

Aftermarket cam vs. Volumetric Efficiency

It is really nice that we have 3 Tech providing cam work and head work. What I don't read here in this thread is the reasoning to why they're not getting the outcomes they expected. Although I have not had the need to buy or use a cam different from stock, changing the duration and lift can have rewarding changes to the efficiency or performance of an engine. There are a lot other things I would add or change to a car first before I considered cam changes for both efficiency and performance or even potentially both. I am no expert on the effects of duration and lift changes, but breaking it down to its root changes you are adjusting volumetric efficiency and you are doing this at different rpm bands. It is difficult to calculate volumetric effieciency of a car without the right equipment, but from what I have read the literature suggest that you take a modern production car's volumetric effieciency somewhere between 75% and 85%. 95% would be excellent. Although in some applications 100% can be exceeded lets take a reasonable figure of a 10% jump in volumetric effieciency. Lets make that imaginary jump from 82.5% to 92.5% than apply it to the cfms of air flow of the 3 cylinder Metro.

993 cc to cid = 60.6 cubic inches
airflow rate= (cid x rpm x 0.5 x EV)/1728
1728 converts cubic inches to cubic feet

Before
(60.6 cid x 5700 rpm x 0.5 x .825 VE)/1728 = 82.46 cfm (most of us don't rev a g10 above 5000)
After
(60.6 cid x 5700 rpm x 0.5 x .925 VE)/1728 = 92.45 cfm

I don't know what the rpm band jumps are for the different cam configuration, but there is several good threads on this.

10 cfm difference according to online calculator is 6.7 horsepower. Now that 10 cfm can even additionally be less depending on other factors (SOHC vs. DOHC, head porting, compression ratio, intake and exhaust systems).

Now take those same numbers and add boost.
Before
82.46 cfm x 2 pressure ratio (14.7 psi) =164.92 cfm
After
92.45 cfm x 2 pressure ration = 184.90 cfm

difference: 184.90-164.92 = 19.98 cfm. Better but still not great (about 13 horsepower).



New Calculations for Best Estimate on Stock Volumetric Efficiency for G13B


Before
(79.3 x 6500 rpm x 0.5 x 1.01)/1728 = 150 cfm
With different chip or standalone: (79.3 x 8500 rpm x 0.5 x 1.01) / 1728 =197 cfm (the rpm range can go higher, but like everything else the gains above this become exponentially smaller).
After
(79.3 x 6500 rpm x 0.5 x 1.11)/1728 = 164.81 cfm
difference = 14.81 cfm
Boosted
Before
150.0 x 2 = 300 cfm (2 pressure ratio, boosted)
After
164.81 x 2 = 329 cfm (2 pressure ratio, boosted)
difference = 29 cfm, good, but not as impressive as is you can get with a higher revving engine.

I hope this sheds some light on disappointment. You need to consider what rpm band you signed on for with the duration and lift changes, but at the lower rpm bands the cfm difference will be even less. For those of you who got one for efficiency there are several articles out there as early as 1922 that talk about not needing or the benefit of not having the highest volumetric efficiency.
Now take into consideration that a dohc can become an even higher revving engine.
Again these numbers are imaginary until tested, but within reason. Lets run the numbers with the potentially higher rpm.

Before
(79.3 x 8000 x 0.5 x 1.01)/1728 =185.4 cfm x2 pressure ratio = 370.8 cfm
After
(79.3 x 8000 x 0.5 x. 1.11 % / 1728 =203.8 cfm x 2 pressure ratio = 407.6 cfm (this would be crazy fun in a GT)
difference = 407.6 -370.8 =36.8 cfm; Not bad at all.
I'm going to run the numbers again at 8500 which is where I imagine I don't want to run past all that often irregardless of how well I have the engine rebuilt.
(79.3 x 8500 x 0.5 x 1.11 % / 1728 = 216 cfm ) this would be the high side of what I would run a compressor map for matching a turbo.

What also might not be clear here is that in the above comparisons the rpm band itself is staying the same. By changing the cam(s) you can open up those upper rpms. It's not a apple to apple, but apple to oranges. One more comparison below.

Before
(79.3 x 6500 x 0.5 x 1.01)/ 1728 = 150 cfm x 2 pressure ratio = 300 cfm.
After
(79.3 x 8000 x 0.5 x 1.11)/ 1728 = 203.8 cfm x 2 pressure ratio = 407.6 cfm
Difference: 203.8 - 150= 53.8, and 407.6 - 300 = 107.6 (now you see why someone would want one these, 71.73 horsepower; this same comparison can be made on a G10 also)

G13BB
As far as I can read up on the G13BB has the same displacement as the G13B at 1298 cc or 79.3 cubic inches of displacement. The compressor mapping will be relatively the same except for volumetric efficiency due to sohc and compression ratio. I will see if I can get a good number on the VE and run a single example here. I'll Run the numbers of 79 horsepower at 6000 rpm.

(79.2 x 6000 x 0.5 x (X))/1728 = 118.5 cfm
237600(x)/1728 = 118.5 cfm
237600(x) = 204768
(x) = .86

Before
(79.2 cid x 6000 rpm x 0.5 x .86 VE)/ 1728 = 118.25 cfm

After
(79.2 cid x 6000 rpm x 0.5 x .96 VE) 1728 = 132.00 cfm
Difference = 132.00 - 118.25 = 13.75 cfm

Boosted Application:

118.5 cfm x 2 = 237 cfm at 6000 rpm

Longevity
Anytime you change something where you are adding or removing materials you have the potential to lose longevity of a part. Running an engine consistently above 5000 rpm especially in that 8000 rpm band will definitely have consequences for longevity. The trade off is you now have a little pocket rocket monster that will be simply amazing while it lasts.
 
I wanted to resurrect this thread since I am finally starting to gather parts for my own turbo. This was on Teamswift and Geometroforum, but I thought should also be here. I have on hand the stainless steel g13b exhaust manifold flange and a IHI RBH5 turbo, but I am not fully committed to using that turbo. I'm looking at a GT20, or a T3 50 or 60 trim. I really need to know ahead of time which turbo flange I will use since all three of these turbos are different.

Update:
Okay I need to prioritize. I don't want to spend a grand that I probably need to use on a long over due engine rebuild. I will simply use the IHI RBH5200 vj11 unit that I have on hand. It is relatively cheap to buy a replacement CHRA or rebuild kit if the turbine is good. I also didn't want to not have the option of upgrading quickly. In order to make that happen I designed an adapter flange to go from a T3 flange to a vj11 RBH5 flange. Since the flange does not get welded on it will be simple to upgrade. It also allows me to buy a fully welded merge collector that has a built in wastegate flange. I also built a custom o2 housing for my probe that uses the same turbo and this combo with a 2 1/2" downpipe will make this turbo a lot more enojoyable. I posted this in my own project thread, but I am posting it here because it goes with the rest of the turbo stuff.
The Flange:
tHtdait.jpg

The Merge Collector:
vIBkMkv.jpg

The custom o2 housing and prior setup on Probe:
rwZOWpL.jpg

5d2AKrW.jpg
 
The Turbonetics T3 s that I'm looking at either block the plate of the wastegate port with a 5 bolt flange, or you buy the plate that as the internal wastegate mount on it, or you do away with the wastegate port with a 4 bolt turbine out design. I want to go to an external wastegate and take advantage of the external mount. I want the 4 bolt design. It saves room and cuts weight. That will require me to re-weld the downpipe, but I'm fine with that. Even with the external wastegate the simpler downpipe will be lighter and use less space. The external wastegate will be way more responsive. There are three contenders that are in range for our engines from Turbonetics. What ever I buy I am going to get both the .48 4 bolt turbine housing and the .63 4 bolt turbine housing. Maybe turbonetics will shed some light with their elusive compressor maps that I have never seen.

1. T3 50 ball bearing 880-11039-BB F1-49 turbine compressor trim 50,
Turbonetics PN: 20268T T3 Turbo 50mm Trim Compressor wheel
Product Specifications:
Wheel Trim: 50mm
Inducer: 1.674" (42.5 mm)
Major: 2.367" (60.1 mm)
T3 inlet turbine housing is available in :
4-bolt .48 21581-49
4-bolt .63 21582-49
4-bolt .65 21589-49
4-bolt .85 21590-49
(additional available in 5 bolt & vband)
COMPRESSOR WHEEL HOUSING - polished, 3" in, 2" outlet PN: 20374-3
F1-49 turbine: 69 trim
inducer: 2.320" (59 mm) comparison with current (52 mm) 67 trim
exducer: 1.929" (49 mm) comparison with current (42.4 mm)

The T3-Series gives you the choice of liquid or air cooled bearing housing with journal
or ceramic ball bearings. All T3 turbos feature our 5/16" "Big Shaft"
for added durability in day to day use. It looked like these were phased out, but it is just their shitty website.


2. T3 C15 TNX 48/54 C15-48 3.0"/2.0" F1-54 turbine 4-bolt / 5-Bolt 48 mm compressor (probably the same 62 mm/ 48 mm has the TNX-20).
(12022-BB ceramics ball bearing; water cooled CHRA available)

3. T25 Internal Gate (T3 compessor housing only)TNX-20. compressor wheel 62/48mm, 3.0"/2.0" compressor housing, 54/43mm turbine (unsure what turbine; not a F1), comes with a 0.65 A/R, either a 4-bolt / 3" V-Band outlet.

Turbonetics F1 turbine wheels:
F1-49 - exducer:1.929 (49 mm); inducer: 2.320 (59 mm); trim: 69
F1-54 - exducer: 2.126 (54 mm); inducer: 2.555 (64.9 mm); trim: 69
 
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